Sagittarius
The commentators were sure and even the Dutch players admitted they got lucky with the Holland’s opening goal from Real Madrid striker Ruud van Nistelrooy. But, in law, it seems the Swedish assistant referee made a fantastic decision.
What looked a desperately poor decision was, in fact, a brilliant piece of officiating, according to the chairman of Austria's refereeing commission Gerhard Kapl. Kapl said Van Nistelrooy was played onside by Italy's Christian Panucci, who had been injured seconds earlier and was lying behind the goal when the Dutch striker scored.
He said the goal was "100 per cent correct, without any doubt", quoting article 11.4.1. of the refereeing code that states "an opposing player cannot be offside when one of the last two defenders has left the field of play" - as in the case of Panucci. Kapl said the rule was specifically designed to prevent a team causing a deliberate offside - but does that tell the whole story?
Panucci was in no way attempting to gain an advantage or deliberately trying to play the Holland attackers onside. He had actually been knocked behind the goal by a collision with his own goalkeeper Buffon, so where does the law stand on that?
Referee expert Julian Carosi’s advice appears to clear up the matter. On his website, he states the following in answer to a question over offside interpreation:
Where should the Assistant Referee place himself to judge for offside in the following instances: A defender’s momentum, takes him out over the goal line but he is not injured.
“Answer: A player leaving the field of play because of his momentum during play, is not deemed to have left without the Referee’s permission and can therefore re-enter without the Referee’s permission.
COMMENTS (13)
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Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Mike Small, June 10, 2008 at 08:21Hi Fellas,
I added the video of the goal. Enjoy!
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Sir Stephen, June 10, 2008 at 13:00was so tempted to add a video myself, but wasn't sure of any copyright infringement I might or might not have broken, so erred on the side of caution. Thanks Mike
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Robyn Stubbs, June 10, 2008 at 08:47Thanks Mike. After scrutinizing the video re-play, the goal was good. If Italy knew the Dutch were offside, wouldn't they have slowed down their play? I also think the dude played up his injury a bit - seemed like he had plenty of time to attempt to get up and re-enter the field.
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Mike Small, June 10, 2008 at 08:58Totally agree. I can't stand when players stay down when they easily could get up. I have a feeling Panucci will be getting off the ground a bit quicker next time around.
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By SqueezedOrangeT..., June 10, 2008 at 00:32It boggles me mind how you can say that these rules are a "Grey area"!!!!! This clearly shows either your lack of clear thinking or of objectiveness!
The motivation behind the rule is very logical: to avoid arbitrary off side situations.
If it wasn't for this rule, defenders could be stepping off the pitch at will to put attackers offside. Also, the rule says he could have come back if he wanted to. The wording is very legalese, but not up for interpretation.
The fact that you CITE the complete rule, yet dare to call this "Grey area" clearly says to me: lack of comprehensive reading skills ... :)
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Sir Stephen, June 10, 2008 at 01:33OK, the referee and his assistant went by the letter of the law, and got it spot on, but it was not in the spirit of the law or game in my opinion, that is my concern and the reason for my 'grey area' comment, as it was plain to all to see, the defender did not step off the pitch on purpose to make Ruud offside, it was in fact the accidental collision with his own goalkeeper that took him out, so the law should be able to be interpreted as such, but as we know, its not....as yet.
Might just see some tinkering with this law for the future now
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By SqueezedOrangeT..., June 10, 2008 at 03:12Dude, nothing to do with the spirit vs letter of the law. If your "spirit" is followed then defenders can simulate an injury and fall over the goal line each and every time. Then defenders would push their buddies over the line and scream bloody murder.
Even if Kuyt had kicked Panucci over the line, it wouldn't factor in, because then it would ve been a foul, not an offside moment.
The only thing I'm willing to concede is that the linesman accidentally got it right. He might not have seen Panucci. Entirely possible.
however ... End result is that the rule is now known widespread, so that is a good thing.
Clearly the more important thing is that ITaly played like crap, that they got 3 great chances, maybe even 5 or 6 in total, but scored nil.
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Sir Stephen, June 10, 2008 at 03:48Well its official now, he (Ruud) was NOT in an off side position, the Uefa general secretary David Taylor has said the officials had made the right decision. He told a news conference: "There is a lack of understanding as to why this particular goal was awarded. In fact some television commentators have insisted the goal was clearly offside, but that is not the case. "The player was not offside because in addition to the goalkeeper there was another Italian player in front of the goalscorer. Even though he had fallen off the pitch, his position was still relevant for the purposes of the offside law."
I wonder though, if anybody would have brought up this obscure rule if the linesman HAD flagged for off side, would the Dutch have protested?
As you rightly say, it has brought it to the attention of us all, which can't be bad. Show's how complicated the off side rule is to the average layman...and here's me thinking grid iron footy is complicated lol
At the end of the the day, the best team won! who said total football was dead, well Cruyff did actually lol, he said Van Basten had killed it when he took over, hope he has plenty of mayo on those words he's eating now lol
France, take note, thats how to play the grand game. Hope you've booked your flights home now boys.
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By SqueezedOrangeT..., June 10, 2008 at 04:481. where is that link to Uefa general secretary David Taylor?
2. you're so right, if Ruud had been flagged offside, noone would have peeped. The Dutch players said they all thought it was offside.
3. According to the bbc 606 site, the fact that Pannucci was unintentionally off the pitch is irrrelevant, since he was there thru no fault of the Dutch.
4. If this was offside, then defenders would kick their buddies off side all the time, acting like if hurt! :)
also:
a. We can still lose to both France and romania easily. Personally i like to see france and us go trhough. But we've at least seen a historic match.
b. I am sad, that this clearly marks the definite exit of Seedorf and Davids. This team is now beyond dispute.
c. Also,what do you think about Nistelrooys NOT diving when he could/
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Sir Stephen, June 10, 2008 at 05:48http://www.corshamref.org.uk/ to Julian Corasi's page
Here's what UEFA general secretary David Taylor told a news conference;
"The officials correctly interpreted Law 11 which relates to offside when Ruud van Nistelrooy scored after 26 minutes." He stated that Christian Panucci played him onside although the Italian defender was off the pitch at the time.
"The goal was correctly awarded. Not many people, even in the game, and I include the players, know this interpretation (of Law 11)," Taylor said. He conceded, however: "The Law itself does not deal with this situation directly at all," but said that referees universally interpreted it in the way that the officials did on Monday night.
He said he had every sympathy with the wider footballing public for believing the officials called it wrong but said that Swedish referee Peter Frojdfeldt and his assistant Stefan Wittberg were absolutely correct in their interpretation.
Taylor told reporters: "Even though the Italian defender (Christian Panucci) was off the field because of his momentum, he is still deemed to be part of the game and is therefore taken into consideration as one of the last two defending players. "As a result Ruud Van Nistelrooy was not nearer the opponents’ goalline than the second last defender and therefore could not be in an offside position. This is a widely known interpretation of the offside law among referees but is not generally known by the wider footballing public and indeed many people in football," he said.
"That is understandable because incidents like this are very unusual. However, there was a similar incident in a Swiss League match about a month ago between Sion and FC Basel and after a TV commentator initially suggested the referee had made a mistake, he later apologised publicly and congratulations to him."
The goal caused confusion among both the Italian and Dutch players too, a number of whom looked astonished when the goal was awarded. It also provoked some angry reaction among the Italian fans when it was replayed on the giant screens inside the Stade de Suisse stadium and led to Luca Toni being booked for dissent for protesting. Taylor said his yellow card would stand and that goals would still be replayed on the screens throughout the tournament. The International Football Association Board, the guardian of the game’s laws, had the prerogative to examine the law if they thought the wording needed to be clarified or a loophole existed, Taylor said.
I think both the Dutch and Italy will go through, france will draw with the Italians, then Italy to sneak a 1-0 win over the Romanians...
Seedorf and Van Basten do net get along at all, he thinks he's a prima dona, but with Basten moving to Ajax after the championships, who knows what will become of Seedorf and the national side
I think Nistelrooy's non dive was because, if he had fallen, I don't think the ref would have given a penalty, I think he knew it wouldn't have been given too, so he attempted to stay on his feet, though he has known to be a diver in the past, maybe the leopard does change its spots lol
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By SqueezedOrangeT..., June 10, 2008 at 16:06I don't think you're right about Seedorf. But that's personal just IMHO ;). Seedorf has had a negative press against him ever since he missed a penalty against France in the Euro96 quarterfinal (van Basten himself missed exactly the same penalty in Euro 92, semi final against Denmark)
But to leave a player out the squad with his qualities is showing yourself a bad people person.
Call it simple racism by the press, call it a reaction to "uppity negro" behaviour, call it a sign of the more openly anti-foreigner times ... idk.
It's kinda water under the bridge. Howeverrrrrrrrrrr ... just you wait, because what about Van Bommel and his father in law, Van Marwijk, the next national manager????
What most likely will happen is that Van Marwijk will find some excuse to include his dear son in law into the squad, but not Seedorf. And what's even more likely, that this blatant piece of nepotism will be completely accepting by the general public and the sports press. There's a major group in the Dutch press which is conservative and vindictive against Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Reiziger and Bogarde. For some reason these are seen as pretentious overearning snobs, while the likes of van Nistelroy and Snider are seen as family men, "always in bed by 10PM".
One or two journalists will say "oh, it's very bad indeed" and then move on.
Oh well.
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Sir Stephen, June 11, 2008 at 03:08Only Van Basten and Seedorf know whats really gone off to sour relations, better elsewhere than at a major tournament, which has been the case many times before. The're a strange lot, the dutch, there is a strong right wing element which precludes acceptance of some, like Seedorf, Davids, Bogarde amongst certain factions in the media and fans alike, but one would hope talent should outweigh their prejudices...we still wait and see here, am sorry to say.
by the way, as a matter of interest, where are you from?
Re: Euro 2008: Was Van Nistelrooy Offside?
By Robyn Stubbs, June 9, 2008 at 15:27I'm confused by those rules... but at first blush, it seems to me that the rule was applied as it should have been - there will always be a scenario in which the rule does not seem fair, but it's in place because those scenarios are the exceptions.